Romans 8:37 “…in all things we are more than conquerors
through Him who loved us.” What is Paul
saying to the church? In what circumstance can we expect to quote this
scripture and be victorious? All too often, actually more often than not, I
hear Christians quote this verse when they are facing some adverse situation be
it great or small. The pastor might say “I am not well prepared to preach
my Sunday morning sermon, but I am more than a conqueror through Him, and the LORD will help me to deliver the message the way it should be preached.” What he
is really saying is I have the faith I will be a conqueror, regardless of my
preparedness, and deliver this message the way I know it should be delivered. But, in
reality the pastor may or may not preach as an effective sermon as he should have or would have had he taken to time to prepare. If he doesn't do a good job than we can assume his faith wavered. If he does do a good job, than we say,
even though he wasn’t prepared, his faith overcame his lack of preparedness. He was a conqueror!
But is that true? Is that what Paul is saying to the saints
in Rome? Is he saying no matter the trial, no matter the circumstance, no
matter the danger, no matter the lack we believers will always be conquerors and we will never go
through a trial, be affected by danger, or never be in lack? Well, yes and
no.
The truth is we will not always have victory over life circumstances that come our way. We will not always be healed. We will not always be able
to pay the rent. We will not always be able to reconcile with a son or
daughter. We will not always have the lifestyle we want. We will not always
have the the marriage partner we want. We will not always be able to provide the food we
need. We will not always be able to buy the clothing we need. We will not always have the friends we want. No matter our
desires, our hopes, our dreams, our passions, or our efforts there is no absolute,
100% guarantee, that we will always be more than conquerors over those
situations. Faith or no faith! Just because
a believer finds himself or herself in a
desperate situation, i.e. sickness, no job, bankruptcy, divorce, false accusation, or
any one of a number of seemingly unbearable problems, and is not delivered from
the situation does not mean there has been a lack of faith. Many times mistakes have
been made to put the believer in the predicament and other times it is simply
unfortunate circumstances that have caused the problem. There are times the believer,
living in faith, eventually experiences victory over the problem, but other
times they do not.
The question then becomes ‘Why not?’ Let’s look at Romans
8:37 again. And let’s start with “all things”. Some would say “all things”
means “all things” and if you are a believer living in faith you should always have
victory over all of those things. If that were true than we can unequivocally say, when
a believer is not a conqueror over a particular circumstance, they must not have
been living by faith. And,the flip side being, if they won a great victory they
were obviously putting some kind of great faith in God. Worldly
victories achieved or not achieved in the life of any believer is not a direct result
of what Paul is writing about in Romans 8:37.
Therefore, what does “all things” mean to the child of God?
First, we need to take a look at Romans 8:35-36, “Who shall separate us from
the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or
nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: ‘For your sake we face death
all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered’.”
Please take note Paul is not saying the love of Christ will always deliver
us from trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, or sword.
What Paul is telling us - is these things: trouble, hardship, persecution, famine,
nakedness, danger, or sword will not separate us from His love. In other words
we can expect to endure the trials described, but by faith they will never separate
us from the love of God. I am convince I am standing on solid ground when I
declare we will endure many of these unpleasant life events, and maybe even, like
Paul, “all these things”. Our sure
confidence is that not one of “those things” can separate us from our Heavenly
Father.
Not only will we not be separated by the difficulties listed
in verse 36, but neither will be separated by those things listed in verse. 38.
The list goes on: death, life, angels, demons, the present, the future, any
powers, heights, depths, or anything else in all of God’s creation will be able
to separate us from the love of God.
Yes, we will be conquerors, not in the sense that we will
not have to endure trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger,
sword, death, life, angels, demons, the present, the future, powers, heights,
depths, or any number of other things that can come against us, but we will be
conquerors in the sense that none of these things have the power to separate you
or me or any other believer from the love of Christ. And if we cannot be
separated from the love of Christ we can be certain in the assurance of spending eternity
with Him. Praise God!
14 comments:
There is a lot of truth spoken here. We go through many trials, as Christians, both as a result of living in a fallen world and because of our own actions. In the end we will attain the ultinate victory; and there will be no more lack, death, sickness, or even tears.
Are you saying that we must experience lack or endure sickness? I know that I and my family have experienced both, but I haven't altered my theology based on my personal experience.
Reply to Merle ...
If you mean "must experience" as in God requires us to have to experience, then no that is not what I believe. What I do believe is that we, the born again children of God, will go through things in life that will be unpleasant (some of which is our own doing and some of which is the fact we live in a fallen world).
Having said that, I also believe God wants to bless us and has promised to do so. But I do not find any promises in the Bible stating we will never go through a trial. And by "go through" I mean go "completely through" the trial.
Peter was delivered from Herod's jail cell and did not have to go through the complete trial that almost certainly would have ended in his death. But earlier James was not spared and his life was taken. Some say Peter was rescued by the angel sent by God because of the prayers of the believers, whereas James maybe did not have that benefit. Maybe, but I do not think so.
What I do know is that in either case God was a sovereign God, He has always been a sovereign God, and He always will be a sovereign God. He is sovereign when a life is spared and also when a life is taken. He is sovereign when a man is healed and when another is not.
Does a man's faith have anything to do with the outcome of his trial? Absolutely, but faith did not prevent Stephen from being stoned, Peter from being hung, or Bartholomew from being skinned alive.
In my case, my faith has not always resulted in the outcome I had hoped for. And I have to say that has been true in the life of every believer I'm acquainted with, many of whom seemingly exercised a great deal of faith and obedience but to no avail.
I have come to accept that when a believer is not delivered from a trial, he can still take solace in the fact that God is sovereign, that God has not turned His back on him, and that God will use that experience to help strengthen him and prepare him for what lies ahead.
Sometimes I get the impression from some of the "Word & Faith" preachers that a Christian should never be sick for long, never face financial or any other type of difficulty for long, or for that matter never die until he/she has lived to a "ripe old age".
I know there are many promises that God will be our protector, provider, stronghold, healer, etc., and I hold on to those promises no matter the circumstance. On the other hand I am convinced just because a believer goes without, becomes ill, is not protected is not necessarily because of their lack of faith.
No matter what happens, I take complete comfort in knowing God is a God of love, grace, mercy, loving-kindness, and sovereign in all that He allows.
I think you misunderstood me. I was not speaking of test and trials as in; persecution, martydom, or rejection. I was specifically referring to sickness and lack, whether they were instruments that God sometimes wants us to endure as a means of teaching us?
Sovereign God? Can you give me chapter and verse?
When you read through the gospels you will rarely, if ever, see an incident in which Jesus (God in the flesh) healed someone sovereignly. In almost every case you see the manifestation of healing attributed to the faith of the one receiving the healing, not a sovereign move of God. In the case with the woman with the issue of blood, Jesus did not even know who it was that had received the power to be healed. In order for someone to be healed, apart from them receiving it by faith, the gift of healing must be operation.
(In my case, my faith has not always resulted in the outcome I had hoped for. And I have to say that has been true in the life of every believer I'm acquainted with, many of whom seemingly exercised a great deal of faith and obedience but to no avail.)
Again, we cannot base our theology on personal experience. Let God be true and every mann a liar.
God gave promise to all the children of Israel, but only 2 men over the age of 40 walked in that promise.
Noah was a preacher of righteousness for 400 years, yet he had no converts outside of his own relatives.
(I have come to accept that when a believer is not delivered from a trial, he can still take solace in the fact that God is sovereign)
We should never accept a lie! The doctrine of God being a sovereign God (as in if it's God will, then it will happen) is a doctrine of devils. Many things happen in humanity, even in the lives of His children, that are outside the will of God.
Just because many in the Word of Faith movement are out of balance is not a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. As Christians we will face many trials and persecutions, but sickness and poverty is a result of the curse of the law and have been taken away at the cross.
( On the other hand I am convinced just because a believer goes without, becomes ill, is not protected is not necessarily because of their lack of faith.)
Convinced = Faith! (firmly persuaded)
Faith (authetic faith) can only be obtained by knowing the will (word) of God. If you have received revelation from God's word in this area you owe it to your brothers and sisters to share it.
Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them (ALL).
A 1,000 shall fall at my side; 10,000 at my righthand, but it shall not come near me. Only with my eyes shall I behold and see the reward of the wicked. There shall no evil befall me, neither shall any plague come near my dwelling.
Either we must believe that the word of God is true, or we can rely on our experiences.
There is a teaching by the Presbyterian church, or John Calvin, called TULIP. They believe in predestination concerning salvation. It sounds like you believe in predestination concerning healing?
Reply to Merle ...
Your comment: (I was not speaking of test and trials as in; persecution, martydom, or rejection. I was specifically referring to sickness and lack, whether they were instruments that God sometimes wants us to endure as a means of teaching us?)
Your point on sickness & lack verses persecution, martyrdom, or rejection is well taken. I, more often than not, find myself defending the Gospel in that regard; during discussions I have with other believers. I, too, agree Jesus died that we might not only obtain salvation, but also be delivered from sickness and lack.
My position with those believers is that we find ourselves suffering sickness and lack, not because God is sovereign causing us to go through those trials, but because we continue to live our lives in a carnal state of mind (little faith). I understand and agree completely, the theology behind the living by faith teaching. Often, I do not agree with the way it is presented. I think we allow ourselves to be subject to the attacks of Satan, not so much due to our lack of faith, but rather our lack of holiness. One could say they both go hand in hand.
Believers who make no effort to strengthen, either their faith or their holiness, set themselves up for many losing battles fight with the demons we face. The question is, is victory always available? As you point out, according to Scripture, it is always available. But, obviously, victory is not always won. I'm not speaking about the ultimate victory of eternal life, but a victory over everyday battles with sin, sickness, and lack.
I restate my earlier point in this initial post, "The truth is we will not always have victory over all life circumstances that come our way." Is it available? Yes, it is available, but not humanly possible to always achieve. I know that through Christ all things are possible, but for us, as humans, to be that connected all the time, every time just does not happen. Not on this side of eternity.
The issue I am trying to raise in this particular post is that when we fail to ward off an attack by the devil, it is not cause for self-condemnation, but is cause for us to realize our God is a sovereign God, and He is in control and will be with us no matter what.
It would be wonderful to live a life completely without sin. Unfortunately, we all fail, we all lose faith, and we all allow sin to defeat us for a season. Can we regain the victory? Yes, Philippians 4:13, "we can do all things through Christ".
Romans 8:37 does not say "we are more than conquerors over all things through Him who loved us". My point is if that were true we would never lose a battle. What Romans 8:37 does say is, "in all things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us". The meaning being, no matter the difficulty, no matter what Satan sends our way, no matter that we fail and/or sin), none of these things can separate us from God. God is sovereign and His will - will be done. Once we recognize our sin, repent of our sin, and for the first time confessed Jesus as LORD we belonged to Him. Nothing can separate us.
Is there such a thing as a man with perfect faith? Not on this side of eternity. There are men of great faith, but not perfect faith. The greater the faith the less battles to be lost.
I did error when I wrote “Faith or no faith” – I should have written “Great faith or little faith”.
Reply to Merle ...
As to your comment on a Calvinistic view of healing: No, I do not believe we are predestined to sickness. I believe healing as in salvation is available through the blood of Jesus. Having said that, salvation requires no holiness (only faith) on the sinner’s part, but healing can be thwarted by a lack of faith and or a lack of holiness.
As I wrote in the reply above, both faith and holiness go hand in hand, and the level of either in one’s spirit is a direct result of a man’s state of mind. Thus, Paul told us to renew our mind. It is to that extent we are able to be overcomers through Christ.
(I think we allow ourselves to be subject to the attacks of Satan, not so much due to our lack of faith, but rather our lack of holiness. One could say they both go hand in hand.)
I would be one of those who say they both go hand and hand. Disobedience and unbelief are often used synonymously. Obedience is evidence that one truly has authentic faith.
James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
("The truth is we will not always have victory over all life circumstances that come our way." Is it available? Yes, it is available, but not humanly possible to always achieve. I know that through Christ all things are possible, but for us, as humans, to be that connected all the time, every time just does not happen. Not on this side of eternity.)
The bible is pretty clear that it is not only possible, but it's expected. I would restate your paragraph with a few minor changes:
"The truth is we can always have victory over all life circumstances that come our way." Is it available? Yes, it is available, but not possible in the flesh to achieve. I know that in the spirit it is possible, but for those who walk in the flesh, that are not connected all the time, it just will not happen, but can and should happen on this side of eternity."
When the Devil attacksl, it is not cause for self-condemnation, but it is cause for us to realize God is not sovereign, and we must take authority over and control the situation, because He is in us and given us the power matter what. We can either speak to the storm and rebuke it, or we can cry in fear like the disciples did in the boat. Jesus rebuked the disciples!
Mark 4:37 But soon a fierce storm came up. High waves were breaking into the boat, and it began to fill with water. 38 Jesus was sleeping at the back of the boat with his head on a cushion. The disciples woke him up, shouting, “Teacher, don’t you care that we’re going to drown?” 39 When Jesus woke up, he rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Silence! Be still!” Suddenly the wind stopped, and there was a great calm. 40 Then he asked them, “Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?” 41 The disciples were absolutely terrified. “Who is this man?” they asked each other. “Even the wind and waves obey him!”
The problem with religion is that it always wants God to do something, when God has already done all that He is going to do. Now He expects us to rise up and use the authority and power that He has given us, rather than trying to bring Him back to earth to handle our situations for us.
Romans 10:6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(salvation requires no holiness (only faith) on the sinner’s part)
Saving of the soul requires holiness on the sinner's part, yielded to the Holy Spirit! This is Sanctification!
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
1 Peter 1:15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “ YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
("The truth is we can always have victory over all life circumstances that come our way." Is it available? Yes, it is available, but not possible in the flesh to achieve. I know that in the spirit it is possible, but for those who walk in the flesh, that are not connected all the time, it just will not happen, but can and should happen on this side of eternity.")
I agree completely with your revision of my statement, but I would point out the statement is not negated by your revision. They are both true. The reason they are both true is all born again men yield to the flesh to one degree or another. I can’t prove it, but I feel very safe in saying there is no born again man in the history of born again men, who has not yielded to the flesh (except maybe those experiencing a death bed conversion), and therefore not they do not always achieve victory over every situation. Yes Christ’s strength is available all of the time. But when the rubber meets the road, we in our weakness will fail.
(When the Devil attacks, it is not cause for self-condemnation, but it is cause for us to realize God is not sovereign, and we must take authority over and control the situation, because He is in us and has given us the power …)
You have stated God is NOT a sovereign God. I have not heard that before from a believer, and therefore I am not prepared to challenge the point. I begin my research at the first opportunity.
The first question that comes to mind is, if God has already done everything He is going to do, then what would be the point of praying? If we ourselves can always speak into existence, by the authority given to us, whatever it is we need, why would we ever pray to God for His favor? Are you saying it is unfruitful to pray for rain in a draught? It is unfruitful to pray for healing? The Bible doesn’t say “speak into existence without ceasing”. It says we are to “pray without ceasing”.
(Saving of the soul requires holiness on the sinner's part, yielded to the Holy Spirit! This is Sanctification! )
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me I recall, from previous discussions, your belief is that salvation is not achieved at the time of the new birth, but rather at the time of physical death. One would have to believe in predestination to believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is saying our salvation comes only by going through the sanctification process. No, salvation is achieved when we are born again. Otherwise what would be the reason for Paul to point out to us that our salvation cannot be taken away? If you define salvation as the time when the spirit leaves an earthly body to spend eternity with the LORD I can’t argue against what you say. But I do not define salvation to be anything other than when our spirit is born again.
Once we are born again we immediately begin the sanctification process. We begin renewing our mind. The reason for renewing our mind is because our soul continues to be carnal in nature. The only way to have victory over a carnal mind is to renew it by the Word of God.
By doing so we can reach a level of sanctification that will allow us to use the authority given to us to ever increasingly be victorious in the battles of life. Man will never achieve perfection in the sanctification process -- not on this side of eternity. The proof being it has never been done. I have heard of a few cult leaders who claim such an experience, all of which I declare to be false.
("The truth is we can always have victory over all life circumstances that come our way." Is it available? Yes, it is available, but not possible in the flesh to achieve.)
In the flesh, NO!, In the spirit, Yes!
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(I can’t prove it, but I feel very safe in saying there is no born again man in the history of born again men, who has not yielded to the flesh (except maybe those experiencing a death bed conversion), and therefore not they do not always achieve victory over every situation.)
I know of a couple of men who were born of the spirit of God who were able to overcome the Devil to the extent that Satan could not touch them. Jesus never yielded to the flesh and the apostle John learned not to yield to it. They boiled John in oil and couldn't destroy him. Listen to what John himself had to say:
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
John14:30 I will not talk with you much more, for the prince (evil genius, ruler) of the world is coming. And he has no claim on Me. [He has nothing in common with Me; there is nothing in Me that belongs to him, and he has no power over Me.
1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 4:4 Little children, you are of God [you belong to Him] and have [already] defeated and overcome them [the agents of the antichrist], because He Who lives in you is greater (mightier) than he who is in the world.
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(You have stated God is NOT a sovereign God. I have not heard that before from a believer, and therefore I am not prepared to challenge the point. I begin my research at the first opportunity.)
Per our conversation last week we both agreed that any/everything that we have learned in the past must be viewed in the light of is it scriptural. I asked you this a couple of days ago on your blog: "Sovereign God? Can you give me chapter and verse?"
(if God has already done everything He is going to do, then what would be the point of praying? If we ourselves can always speak into existence, by the authority given to us, whatever it is we need, why would we ever pray to God for His favor? Are you saying it is unfruitful to pray for rain in a draught? It is unfruitful to pray for healing? The Bible doesn’t say “speak into existence without ceasing”. It says we are to “pray without ceasing”.)
I didn't state it very well! We do need to pray, and we do need to confess, and we do need to stand in faith and patience until the manifestation of God's promises come into fruitition. What I should have said is that we don't need to beg and plead with God to do something that He has already promised us. Healing and prosperity are promises that have been paid for, but we still must receive them through prayer, confessing and believing.
(Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me I recall, from previous discussions, your belief is that salvation is not achieved at the time of the new birth, but rather at the time of physical death.)
I believe that a person is saved: spiritually at the new birth instantaneously, soul sanctification is a process which must continue throughout the life of a believer, and physically at the resurrection of the dead or rapture (whichever comes first). I do not believe in once saved always saved. As a matter of fact I believe that a majority of people who have experienced regeneration will not continue on to salvation. But those who endure till the end will be saved.
(One would have to believe in predestination to believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is saying our salvation comes only by going through the sanctification process.)
I don't believe in predestination, and I don't understand the association between believing a born again Christian must continue in the sanctification process in order to be saved and predestination? Also I don't believe that the verse needs to be interpreted, but that it speaks for itself; "Salvation through Sanctification"
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(No, salvation is achieved when we are born again. Otherwise what would be the reason for Paul to point out to us that our salvation cannot be taken away? If you define salvation as the time when the spirit leaves an earthly body to spend eternity with the LORD I can’t argue against what you say. But I do not define salvation to be anything other than when our spirit is born again. )
Let me take the liberty of correcting your statement again:
No, salvation is not achieved when we are born again. Otherwise there wouldn't numerous scripture pointing out that our salvation can be forfeited by the believer. If you define salvation as the time when the spirit comes into our earthly body and eternity cannot be lost, I would argue against what you say. But the word of God defines salvation as both instantaneous and progressive, not only when our spirit is born again.
Once we are born again we immediately begin the sanctification/salvation process. We begin renewing our mind/soul. The reason for renewing our mind is because our soul continues to be carnal in nature. The only way to have victory over a carnal mind is to renew it by the Word of God. And if we do not put our flesh under it will take us to hell.
By doing so we can reach a level of sanctification that will allow us to use the authority given to us to ever increasingly be victorious in the battles of life. (This is the word of Faith teaching) Man can achieve perfection in the sanctification process -- on this side of heaven.
(The proof being it has never been done. I have heard of a few cult leaders who claim such an experience, all of which I declare to be false.)
As Reagan said to Carter: "There you go again"
It is a dangerous practice to base our theology on our personal experiences. We must not base what God is capable of doing through man, based on what we have witnessed. Remember; only 2 men out of millions of adults over 40 years old walked in God's promised land.
My reply tonight does not directly address the points you raise in your last two replies. I hope to do so in the days to come.
Having said that, I wish to use this reply to explain why I am not concerned about what is most important to me, My eternal salvation, even though I admit to not being completely sanctified. I admit to yielding to sin in my carnal weaknesses. I admit to confessing those sins. I admit to receiving forgiveness.
I believe the following Bible verses were written to me, because a loving, gracious, merciful, God loves me even though He knew I will fall short of perfection. Actually these verses were written exactly because I am not yet perfected. My spiritual goal is to develop the closest relationship I can possibly achieve with the Father. Whether or not I actually achieve perfection is not a real concern. This is a fight, and no matter what happens during this life, when it is all said and done, winning the fight is my goal.
(1 John 1:5-2:6)
1 John 1:5-10
In God there is no evil, only righteousness.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
To walk in sin is to live a life of sin. Believers do sin, but they do not walk in sin. The reason they do sin is because they have not complete the sanctification process. They do not walk in darkness (sin) even though they may not have complete sanctification.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
Believers who walk in the light are those believers who seek the light at every opportunity. The more light they seek and find, the more light they walk in, thus (the sanctification process). In the process the believer will sin, because they have yet to achieve complete sanctification. It’s a process. Even though a believer sins, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses him from all sin. If a believer willfully sins then we have a problem – I would say he is dangerously close to losing his salvation as you have suggested. But if a believer sins because of an area of weakness in his flesh the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses him from all sin.
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Any believer who claims to achieve complete sanctification is deceiving themselves. To your point about Jesus and John living without sin, I agree -- Jesus of course lived without sin, and you could be right when you say John also achieved that level of sanctification, but I don’t know that to be necessarily true.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
“If we confess our sins” -- John is not speaking to the sinner. He is speaking to the believer. He knows the believer will sin, but if they confess their sin they will be forgiven and cleaned from all unrighteousness. I am assured that when I sin, (not because sin is a way of life, but because it is a carnal weakness not yet brought into subjection) I confess that sin and know my relationship with the Father has not been broken.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I sin. My soul continues to struggle with carnality. I do not commit the sins I used to commit, because I have renewed many areas of my mind. In those areas, I have achieved a level of sanctification and sin no more. Other areas remain in a sanctification process. I am not going to make God a liar by saying by saying I have not sinned, because I have. His word is in me, and to the degree it is, sanctification has taken root.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:1-6
John goes on to say he is writing to us so that we may not sin. He doesn’t say so we will not sin. He goes on to address the event of when a believer does sin. We have an Advocate with the Father. John makes an issue of this because he knows believers will not reach a level of sanctification that will stop all sin. John is writing Holy Spirit inspired words to us because we need those words to put in our mind ever increasing our level of sanctification. He recognizes the believer needs encouragement to the point of ensuring him he is not losing his salvation when he sins because of the Advocate.
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
He is the propitiation for the believer’s sin, just as He is for the non-believer’s sin, because He knows the believer is going to sin.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
I can know that I know Him, not because I never sin, but because I have renewed my mind and endeavor to earnestly keep His commandments. I continue to break commandments resulting in sin, but I earnestly work towards the goal of not breaking them. I keep His commandments because I know Him. I break His commandments because my mind has not been perfectly renewed – total perfect sanctification has yet to be achieved.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
I say “I know Him” and yet I sin (by definition breaking His commandments) not as willfulness to do so, but because of not achieving complete sanctification. I know Him and truth is in me, because it is my desire to not break his commandments and stay in His Word in an effort to keep them all.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I make a big effort to keep Gods word – I get better at that effort as I stay in His word. And as I get better His love becomes more and more perfect in me. As long as I continue to keep His Word to the best of my ability, with God’s help, I know that I will remain in Him
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
I can confidently say I abide in Him because I know my sins have been cast away and it is my desire to walk just as He walked.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
I will use this reply to explain why I am concerned about what is most important to the body, believers eternal salvation, even though I'm not completely sanctified. I am in the process.
I believe the following Bible verses were written to all believers; even though God loves us, He will judge us; because God is just, holy, and righteous. He knew we would fall short while being sanctified. Actually these verses were written because He expects us to be perfected. Our spiritual goal is to develop and achieve such a close relationship with the Father, that we not sin any longer. Achieving perfection should be a concern for all His children. This is a fight, and if we continue in the fight during this life, when it is all said and done, we will be with the Father. (1 John 1:5-2:6)
Believers will sin while they are growing spiritually, but they should not live any longer in sin. The reason they sin is because they have not completed the sanctification process. They walk in darkness (sin) because they lie and do not practice the truth..
I agree it’s a process. When a believer sins, he must confess and repent (turn from) his sin and the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanses him from all sin. If a believer willfully sins then: Huston; we have a problem (a little NASA humor)) – I would say he is in danger of losing his salvation. But when a believer sins it because he has given in to his flesh, and he must repent that the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse him from that sin.
Any believer who claims to (have never sinned) is deceiving himself. This verse is speaking of someone claiming to have never sinned; not that it's impossible to achieve freedom from sin. John achieved that level of sanctification, his writings seem to imply this to be true.
If we sin, our relationship with the Father has been broken and is in need of restoration. If we do something first, then God will do what He said He would do.
(I sin. My soul continues to struggle with carnality.) Do you remember Flip Wilson's line; "The Devil made me do it" It doesn't fly with God. If we sin, it is by choice. A decison to obey the flesh rather than the spirit. If we walk in the spirit we will not obey the flesh.Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
( I am not going to make God a liar by saying by saying I have not sinned, because I have.)This verse is speaking in the past tense, not present or future tense. We can and should live above sin. We have every ability to walk without sin as did Jesus. As He is, so are we in this world.
(John goes on to say he is writing to us so that we may not sin. He doesn’t say so we will not sin.)
May not sin is having the ability, will not sin is a choice. God not only has given us the ability to not sin, but He expects us to choose not to sin. He goes on to address that ("IF" not when) a believer does sin. We have an Advocate with the Father. John makes an issue of this because he knows believers have the ability to reach a level of sanctification that we can stop all sin.
John is writing Holy Spirit inspired words to us because we need know that ceasing from sin is not only possible, but expected. He recognizes the young believer needs encouragement while they are being sanctified to encourage him that he is not losing his salvation when he sins because of the Advocate. IF! IF! IF! IF! IF! NOT WHEN!
I can know that I know Him, if I keep His commandments. Stop earnestly working towards the goal of not breaking his commandments, and allow the Holy Spirit to empower you. Not by power, nor by might, but by my Spirit says the Lord. I keep His commandments because I know Him. I break His commandments because my mind has not been renewed – sanctification has yet to be achieved.
I say “I know Him” and yet I sin by breaking His commandments, (thus by definition I really do not know Him) to knowingly sin is to willfully sin. (I know Him and truth is in me, because it is my desire to not break his commandments and stay in His Word in an effort to keep them all.) Desire does not cut it!John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote that if we do not keep His commandments, we are liars and the truth is not in us. (pretty self explanatory, no translation needed.)
(I make a big effort to keep Gods word – I get better at that effort as I stay in His word. And as I get better His love becomes more and more perfect in me. As long as I continue to keep His Word to the best of my ability, with God’s help, I know that I will remain in Him)Effort and ones own ability won't cut it. Thank God for the Holy Ghost!
(I can confidently say I abide in Him because I know my sins have been cast away and it is my desire to walk just as He walked.)Desire does not cut it! Must walk as He walked! MUST! MUST! MUST! MUST! Whenever I see that "MUST" word, it makes me stand up and take notice. Must walk just as He walked. Must be born again. Must depart from iniquity. (1 John 2:6, John 3:7, 2 Timothy 2:19)
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